I think two of the most dangerous influences any church faces are: (1) Spiritual leaders who have lost their first love and (2) the onslaught of church hoppers. Having wavered before in my faith and flirted with losing my first love with God, I know firsthand how dangerous the first one can be. But that's something we spiritual leaders have control over. The second one...not so much.
I call church hoppers “connoisseurs of fine churches” because they’re continually on a quest to find the church that is spiritual enough for them, will endlessly engorge themselves on the “services” of the churches they attend, and always have a critical word to say afterwards whenever “church” doesn’t meet their standards.
Here are seven things we try to do to keep church hoppers from wearing out their welcome.
#1 Ask church hoppers to commit to tithing and serving in your 101-201-301 classes
That usually takes care of it right there. Because church hoppers are consumers by nature, anything that strikes them as sacrificial will surely turn them off. As a ministry friend of mine used to tell me, “At the first sign of trouble, raise the bar.”
#2 Tell your people to stop inviting their Christian friends to church
This past Sunday I may have been one of the few pastors out there that stood up and said, “Please DO NOT invite your Christians friends to our Easter services. We want other churches in the area to know we have their back. Also, we want to grow this church through conversion growth, not transfer growth. Let’s pack this place out with people who are keeping God up at night because they are living far from him.” I strategically do that 3-4 times a year.
#3 Preach short sermons
Howard Hendricks used to say, “Keep them longing, not loathing.” I buy into that philosophy. I try to speak anywhere between 21 and 26 minutes max. That drives church hoppers nuts because they want to “be fed.” I’m not interested in “feeding people” unless they are in the early stages of their spiritual journey. Church hoppers as well as Christians further along their spiritual journey need to be feeding themselves. Anything I provide on Sunday morning should be in addition to their own self-directed spiritual nourishment. One point, one scripture, 21-26 minutes, that’s enough.
#4 Don’t sing 9,345 worship songs
Church hoppers, 9 times out of 10, came from a church background where they were taught they needed 5-6 worship songs to really connect with God. That needs to be re-taught. Where did we get the idea that worship = singing anyway? That’s part of it, but only a small part of it. Every part of the service is worship. Every part of my life is worship. Limiting your worship songs except for occasions when you are led by God to expand the repertoire forces people to recognize this or leave.
#5 Keep your services short
We keep our services to 55 minutes, period. That’s it. That’s because we believe “church” is more than the official service that happens on a Sunday morning. It’s what happens before, during and afterwards. It’s what happens during the week when 2-3 gather. Experiencing a well-conceived 55 minute service to the church hopper is like spending your whole life overeating and then sitting down for a healthy, well-proportioned meal that someone else serves you. “Hey, I’m used to eating 16 pieces of fried chicken for dinner and 8 servings of bread! Why do I only get two? Waah.”
#6 Eliminate Christian “insider” language from the way you talk on the stage
The fact that I say “Leader” and “forgiver” from the stage drives church hoppers nuts. “You meant to say ‘Savior and Lord,' didn’t you?” At issue is an old mission’s word called “contextualization,” which basically means we need to speak in the language and culture of the hearer, not the speaker. The Greek word “kurios” doesn’t mean “Lord” in 21st century American idiom. Your old Bible translation from 50 years ago may read that way, but people aren’t talking that way today. Challenge your “insider” language and watch how church hoppers and their friends file right out of your services.
#7 Sing Non-Christian songs in your services on occasion
This past weekend we opened our service with Jet’s “Are you Gonna be My Girl?”
On Monday I promptly received an email about it…
This past weekend, I could not believe my ears. When worship opened up, I heard the opening chords for Jet’s- "Are you going to be my girl?" I was expecting the Apologetix parody version, “Are you gonna be Ike's girl?”
But in listening to the lyrics it sounded like they were covering the actual Jet Song – a song about figuring out how to get a one night stand, for a girl who came to some club or party with another guy.
I am hoping that I was mistaken and they were playing the Christian Parody version because I am having a real issue with wrapping my head around why it would be remotely ‘OK’ to play this content in a worship service.
There is a line between having a light fun service to reach the new/non-believer and cheapening the value and truth that the gospel can stand alone to reach out to someone. This may have crossed it.
Frustrated…
Name Withheld
Here was my response…
Frustrated,
I got your email and appreciate you taking the time to shoot me your thoughts.
I must say that while I appreciate your concern, this is certainly not the first nor will it be the last time we sing non-Christian music in our worship services.
We do this because we are trying to reach both non-Christians as well as Christians in the same service, and playing a non-Christian song up front in the service, we have learned, puts people far from God at ease.
Our philosophy has always been that Christians should be the ones that should be made the most uncomfortable in church, not the non-Christians. The way I put it is this -- we will always choose to offend the Christians before the non-Christians.
Seeing that you are frustrated, and given the fact that I talked with a bunch of people far from God on Sunday who loved the energy of the song and felt connected to the service because of it, it appears that we have achieved our goal.
My suggestion is this -- weigh carefully whether or not you want to be a part of a church that sings music like this, and plays difficult to watch video clips, and a host of other things to reach people far from God. If not, then now would be the time to look for another church before you put down roots too deep.
If on the other hand this is the kind of church you want to be a part of, I would welcome you to join in with everything you have and start reaching out to people far from God.
I hope this helps.
Thanks!
Brian
Church hoppers can be a lethal bunch, so don’t make them too cozy. However, and I’ll blog about this at another time – please remember that God can also be leading some of those people to your church too. But that’s a post for another day.
7 Ways We Keep Church Hoppers From Staying
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28 comments:
Brian,
Vince did a similar series on this on his Church plant blog at:
www.vinceantonucci.com
Good stuff! Lil hardball, but good! :-)
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"playing a non-Christian song up front in the service, we have learned, puts people far from God at ease.""
That statement speaks volumes about your theology.
The church growth gurus tell us that there are millions of them who are looking for God and we should adapt our worship and market our churches to be attractive to them. If they feel “comfortable” and “unthreatened” in our services; if we design church around their “felt needs,” they say, the unchurched and the unregenerated might like us. Then we can get them “plugged in” so that they might eventually make a “decision” for God.
Are there any seekers out there? The Bible indicates that there are some people who are seeking. But what is it that they seek? A look at the following passages indicates that natural men do seek something; they seek signs and wonders, human wisdom, and favor from men. Natural men who do seek for a god, are not really interested in The God but seek after false gods of their own imaginations.
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; I Cor. 1:22-23
Many seek the ruler’s favour; but every man’s judgment cometh from the LORD. Proverbs 29:26
And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards. And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts. Isaiah 19:3-4
There are some incidents in Scripture where unregenerate men did seek after Jesus:
And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. Matt. 2:3
Then said some of them of Jerusalem, Is not this he, whom they seek to kill? John 7:25
But here it is plainly evident that their real purpose was not to worship Him but to kill Him.
If there are any seekers out there who are really looking for God, shouldn’t we be friendly or sensitive to them? Shouldn’t we be concerned about them? Well, of course we should. After all, God is concerned about them. In the book of the Psalms are two very similar verses that clearly indicate that God looks for those who seek after Him.
The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. Psalm14:2
God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Psalm 53:2
But guess what?
THERE ARE NONE!
THEY DON’T EXIST!
Now don’t get mad at me. That’s not my opinion; it’s God’s definitive declaration. Here are the verses that follow the two mentioned above in the Psalms. Here is the rest of the story:
The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts. Psalm 10:4
They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Psalm 14:3
And in case that isn’t sufficient enough proof, here is more of God’s Word on the subject:
Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Psalm 53:3
An evil man seeketh only rebellion: therefore a cruel messenger shall be sent against him. Proverbs 17:11
Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes. Psalm 119:155
For the people turneth not unto him that smiteth them, neither do they seek the LORD of hosts. Isaiah 9:13
Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because they are many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong; but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek the LORD! Isaiah 3
And finally, the most definitive, absolute, unarguable and all-inclusive statement of all:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Romans 3:11
There IS another Seeker mentioned in Scripture and His name is Jehovah. He is the Good Shepherd and He is seeking His flock.
For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day. And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country. I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel. I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD. I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment. Ezekiel 34:11-16
Either there are seekers out there who are looking for the true, living God or there are not. Who are you going to believe – Rick Warren and Bill Hybels or God?
The Church is the body of Christ. It is assembled together for “born again” believers to worship and to be instructed in doctrine and righteousness and to be equipped for the work of the ministry. It is NOT a club and there is no legitimate place for unbelievers in it.
If we were really sincere about being “seeker sensitive,” we would not be concerned about being sensitive to non-existent seekers. We would only be concerned about the real seeker and we would model our worship services according to His commands and not our preferences?
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. John 4
I would encourage you to watch this video:
http://bloodtippedears.blogspot.com/2008/03/paul-washer-are-you-going-to-share-this.html
J&J,
I guess it's fair to say that we're on opposite sides of the issue?
Brian
Dear Brother,
The Bible is crystal clear on the matter. It looks like you have a great zeal for Christ. I probably will not return to your site but I will leave you with this:
The "seeker" church has a deep problem. Rather than purse gospel preaching that God uses to convert the lost and add them to the church, they feel the church has to be attractive to the lost AS THEY ARE in their unregenerate state. This is impossible unless the church is drastically changed from its Biblical calling. The false theology is that sinners have something in them that must be appealed to in order to “woo” them into Christianity. I believe the Holy Spirit convicts people of their sin. They cannot see the things of God as being attractive until after they are converted.
We are dead in our sins. Nothing we can do can make depraved man feel comfortable in church.
When was the last funeral you held? Next time you have a funeral, go up to the body and tell it to do something. Nothing will happen.
When Christ commanded Lazarus to "come forth"...how did this dead man obey?
We are all dead in our sins and the only way is through the supernatual work of the Holy Spirit. Not silly man-made trickery. Bait and switch.
Blessings,
Josh
I'm interested now to see the Biblical response to J & J's Biblical arguement. I assume your practices are based on firm Scripture?
Dear Brian,
It seems the church has been taken over by an alien. This enemy has commandered the church to fulfill his own desires.
Who is this invading enemy? It is man! And he has brought into the church his lust for worldly satisfaction and pleasure. The church has become man-centered instead of God-centered, and the focus is on felt needs instead of God's glory. These problems are not peripheral things. I'm convinced that the very heart and nature of the church and the Gospel are at stake. The great need of the hour is revival and reform that produces true churches where God is the center, the glory of God is the focus, and the Bible is the authoritative and sufficient manual.
Ultimately all that matters is the glory of God (Psalm 57:5). And God has ordained that He will receive most glory through His bride, the church (Ephesians 3:21). Restoring sound doctrine concerning the nature of conversion is foundational to being a church that brings the glory He deserves!
Jeff Noblit, Senior Pastor-Teacher
First Baptist Church of Muscle Shoals, AL.
Just wondering ... ok, 55 minutes for worship ... 21-26 devoted to preaching ... and then you state don't over kill singing.
What is a rough thumbnail sketch of your worship service?
Good question. Typically it looks like the following with occasional variations…
-Pre-service 5 minute window video
-Band plays opening song
-Welcome
-2-3 Worship songs
-Offering
-Pre-message video or song
-Message
-Post message element (sometimes)
-Communion
-Announcements
Hi Jeff,
Honestly, I think we're on the same page.
Our church's goal is to make disciples, not to cater to crowds or dimish the presentation of the message of the Christian faith.
Trust me, we do more things that make our church NOT grow than grow. And I'm more into sensing the need for "correct doctrine" than most of my pastor friends I run with.
The issue is whether or not a church will cater toward angry, inwardly focused church hopping Christians, or focus on Matthew 28:18-20.
Great hearing from you.
Brian
Anonymous,
Responding to J&J's comments, I think John 1:14 and 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 are good starting points.
Well Brian, I said I probably would not return but I did to see if you kept my comments on or not. You used a very commonly used Scripture by most seeker pastors. Now we must interpret this correctly. Please forgive me for the length of this comment but it's vital.
To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak, I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 1 Corinthians 9:20
Over the years I have pondered a contradiction in the life of Paul. In the book of Galatians, Paul strongly denounced any compromise with Judaizers (those who claimed Christians must keep Jewish laws like circumcision and food laws). He even rebuked Peter for compromising on this matter (Galatians 2:14). Yet according to Acts 21:23 – 26, Paul went through a Jewish rite of purification and entered the temple where sacrifices were offered for him and his companions. Such behavior apparently contradicts what Paul taught in Galatians.
But Paul’s foremost concern was the gospel. Paul had been warned that if he went to Jerusalem he would be bound by the Jews and handed over to the Gentiles (Acts 21:11). When the disciples tried to prevent his going he said this: “What are you doing, weeping and breaking my heart? For I am ready not only to be bound, but even to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus” (Acts 21:13). Paul’s purpose for going was “the name of the Lord Jesus” which signifies His person and work, i.e. the gospel. Paul’s enemies pressed charges against him stating that he was seeking to persuade Jews to forsake Moses and not circumcise their children (Acts 21:21). Later Claudius Lysias told Felix that the Jews were accusing Paul over questions about their law (Acts 23:28, 29).
So to forestall that issue and focus back on the gospel itself, Paul followed the advice he was given: he took a Nazirite vow and went through purification. He also did this to reassure the Jewish believers that his mission to the Gentiles did not mean he forbade Jews from keeping their customs if they saw fit. What Paul anathematized was the teaching that all Christians, Jew or Gentile, must practice the stipulations of the Mosaic Law to be right with God. Accordingly, circumcision was a matter of Christian liberty; the Jews were free to practice it as they saw fit. Paul was not forcing Jews to give up circumcision by divine command, but making it a matter of liberty.
Paul explained his practice: “And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law, though not being myself under the Law, that I might win those who are under the Law” (1Corinthians 9:20). Paul was not obligated by Christian duty to keep all the stipulations of the Mosaic covenant. But his total commitment to preaching the gospel to all compelled him to come to Jerusalem “as a Jew.” This same principle can be seen in his earlier missionary practices when Paul continually entered synagogues in various cities. For example: “Now when they had traveled through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures explaining and giving evidence that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, ‘This Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you is the Christ’” (Acts 17:1-3). By preaching in the synagogue Paul was not implying that ones finds salvation through the traditions of the synagogue. Nor was he implying that what was typically taught in the synagogue is what people should believe. He went there to preach the gospel to them from their own Scriptures.
In the same chapter of Acts, Paul visited Mars Hill and preached to Greek philosophers according to their manner of discourse. But he preached Christ and the resurrection (Acts 17:18; 30, 31). Earlier I cited 1Corinthians 9:20 about Paul becoming “as a Jew.” Here is the rest of his statement: “to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, that I might win those who are without law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some. And I do all things for the sake of the gospel, that I may become a fellow partaker of it” (1Corinthians 9:21-23). What he did on Mars Hill illustrates what Paul meant by that. In the synagogue he reasoned from scriptures, on Mars Hill he debated ideas about the nature of God and proclaimed that Christ had been raised from the dead so they were accountable to repent.
The error that many people make, especially those in the Purpose Driven and Emergent movements, is that they take Paul’s practices and teachings employed in the public arena to preach the gospel and apply them to the church. Many times have I heard 1Corinthians 9:20-23 cited to justify changing the church to make it attractive to the world. This is a category error.
Let us consider Paul’s address to the Ephesian elders. He recounted to them how he had preached the gospel: “solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ” (Acts 20:21). God used Paul’s preaching to establish a church in Ephesus. He also described his teaching in that church: “Therefore I testify to you this day, that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose [KJV “counsel”] of God” (Acts 20:26, 27). Paul’s charge to these elders reveals the need to carefully guard the well being of the flock: “Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them” (Acts 20:28 – 30).
Outside of the church, in the public arena, Paul became all things to all men, i.e. he was willing to go into their arena and speak the gospel to them according to their customs of public discourse. Inside the church, Paul taught that elders are to carefully guard the flock and make sure they are not harmed by wolves. The church is to be a safe place where God’s flock is fed the pure word of God. As Paul departed he said, “And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified” (Acts 20:32). Nothing is to be taught in the church that is not according to the whole counsel of God and also summarized as “the word of His grace.” The sensibilities of Jews or Greeks outside the church cannot determine what is taught inside the church.
Let us now consider Paul’s stern rebuke of the Judiazers in Galatia in this light. There were those who wanted to attack Christian liberty by requiring circumcision: “But not even Titus, who was with me, though he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage. But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you” (Galatians 2:3 – 5). Paul guarded the truth of the gospel and would not tolerate false teaching or practice in the church.
Further evidence for Paul’s distinction between what might need to be done outside the church for the sake of the gospel and what could not be tolerated as a legal requirement inside the church is seen in his dealings with Timothy: “Paul wanted this man to go with him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those parts, for they all knew that his father was a Greek” (Acts 16:3). So on one hand, inside the church, Paul would not tolerate a demand that Titus be circumcised. But on the other, outside the church for the sake of the gospel going to the Jews, Timothy was circumcised.
There have been those who resolved this apparent conflict by claiming Paul was being inconsistent in Acts 16 and Acts 21 and was guilty of hypocrisy. After all, Paul is not infallible. However, we have to consider authorial intent. Did Luke, as the Holy Spirit inspired author of Acts, give any contextual hints or evidence that his readers were to understand that Paul was being hypocritical and downright in error? The answer is “no.” Paul’s journey from Ephesus to Jerusalem, through various courts and trials, then by ship and on to Rome is portrayed by Luke as that of a great man of God forthrightly testifying of the gospel everywhere he went. Luke gives no hint that we are to see Paul as a hypocrite. Elsewhere in Acts when someone’s motives were wrong, they were rebuked (like Simon Magus in Acts 8). Luke intends for us to see Paul in a positive light.
I conclude therefore that outside the church we are to take the gospel to any venue that arises and boldly proclaim it. That others (like the Greek philosophers on Mars Hill) use the same forum to debate ideas does not sully the gospel preacher who goes there. We are also to avoid needless offense to people outside the church. But inside the church, we must carefully maintain purity of teaching. The church is not a venue for Judiazers, philosophers, and false teachers.
We can fall into error in two ways. One is to turn the church itself into “Mars Hill.” No, the church is not a forum for hearing diverse ideas and human wisdom; it is to be fed nothing but the pure word of God. The other error is to so isolate ourselves (for whatever reason) that we fail to go out into the arena of public debate and proclaim the gospel. The church is not to be a cloistered community. When the medieval church created cloistered communities (monasteries) the results were neither purity in the church (they fell into mysticism) nor evangelism outside.
The pattern revealed in the New Testament must be followed. We live in a day in which the biggest threat is the world coming into the church. This we must fight. But in the fight, let us not fail to simultaneously go forth into the arena of public debate and proclaim the gospel. This approach will be honoring to God.
Blessings,
Josh
HT: http://cicministry.org/
I'm not sure how I stumbled on this blog but it sure is quite interesting. I think both sides are passionate and somewhere in between is where we should be?
Gary (Reading.Pa.)
It is very clear that there are many views on the topic of "church worship". By the way, this has been going on way before Martin Luther.
As a 19 year old convert to "fellowship with my Savior" from Catholicism back in 1987, I am glad that my pastor preached the word boldly (from the Greek to English). His style was strong, convicting and loving and the most importantly the ministry welcomed me. The music was incredible and they even had drums.
Years later, I now have a BS in Theology, MS in Family Counseling and a deep desire for the Word. However and PLEASE READ THIS........
I am under whelmed by the majority of Christians that are "fat" with church and knowledge of the Word and continue in the feast in debate about the minors in the Kingdom.
MY FIRST QUESTION AND ONLY QUESTION I HAVE FOR ANYONE THAT STARTS ANY CRITISIZM ABOUT ANY PART OF CHURH, MUSIC, PASTOR, LAY PERSON IS THIS.
WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU EITHER LEAD SOMEONE TO THE LORD (I NEED A NAME AND A VERIFIABLE PHONE NUMBER AND DATE) OR ARE YOU CURRENTLY DISCIPILINING SOMEONE?
I will not apologize for this comment. If you can not answer this question in a timely manner, you do not have an opinion.
One of my favorite quotes by one of my mentors was this. “If you haven’t read in the last 2 days, you are not worth listening to”.
Brian,
I have some questions along with the answers.
#1. Who was probably the most successful church planter in the New Testament? Probably Paul.
#2 Who’s ministry probably reached more lost people than anyone else’s in the New Testament?
Probably Paul’s.
#3 What did Paul tell the church in Corinth to preach to (everyone) Jews and Greeks alike?
He told the Corinthian church “We preach Christ crucified.” 1Cor 1: 23-31.
#4 Why does Paul recommend preaching Christ crucified?
Because if we don’t preach Christ crucified our preaching will have no power and no wisdom of God. Without the power and wisdom of God we are wasting our fleshly time and energy and might as well stay in bed on that Sunday mornings. I think any preaching which does not glorify Christ, along with His sacrificial death for our sins (Christ crucified), will not reach any lost people. So how you get the lost people to actually hear the preaching of Christ crucified doesn’t matter as long as it is done decently and in order. 1Cor: 14:40
#5 So what’s the big deal about performing a familiar secular song as long as Christ crucified is preached during other parts of the church service?
I say nothing. I think more lost sheep’s ears and hearts are opened with the honey of one familiar secular song in church than with the droning of some of the old Christian standards. People need to feel comfortable before their ears and hearts will be opened enough to hear the preaching. If they aren’t ready to hear, the preaching will fall on deaf ears. Time for a nap. If you ever heard or seen a lost person saying to the person next to them after hearing a popular secular song in church, “Wow, this place is cool. I like it here,” you will understand what I am trying to say.
Ed
That's a good point Ed. Thanks for sharing.
Brian,
Heard you on the radio yesterday in Seattle, KGNW - Thor Tolo. Remembered your name and here I am.
I do agree whole heartedly with Josh. He has stated the Biblical position exceptionally well. Even a strict Biblical position can come with Mercy, Grace, Peace and Charity toward all who would enter the church. I would encourage all to hold up the narrow way of God as opposed to the broad way. As stated God will be glorified even by the rocks if necessary.
Interesting post and follow-ups. Couple of questions on your post, Brian:
1) As a committed christian who just moved into the area, are there seven things that you do to retain committed Christians?
2) Do you have any policies regarding what media content your church uses or songs that are sung to make non-church goers feel comfortable.
I like this particular post... for several reasons.
First, thank you for not being intimidated by a regular church goer at your church who was offended by something you did.
I am so tired of catering to people's whining about what should or should not be in the church, or how things should be done, or how we reach the lost.
I think Christians should be offended more often. ( i say this as a youth minister who works in a church)
Why?
Because it is not about us. When people are offended or complain about something that bothered *them* in service, clearly, it's still all about them.
Thank you for staying true and on the journey of reaching those who are far from God.
blessings,
the youth minister from texas
Brian,
Thank you.
In my never-so-humble opinion, the single biggest problem with churches today are whiny people. The second biggest problem are church leaders who tolerate whiny people. At the end of the day, we need to simply grow up.
Christians (church hoppers in particular) need to stop treating Christianity like a buffet and just sit down to the feast that God has already prepared for us. We need to take a step back and realize that God wants our love and our worship, and He wants that love to flow out to others, no matter how we choose to do that.
The church hoppers don't need God, they need a "thing" to either control or criticize. They're half-full (usually of themselves) already. Let them have their buffet and in the meantime, let's me and you get the truly starving to the table by any means necessary!
...we are trying to reach both non-Christians as well as Christians in the same service...
Interesting post... I agree that worship can't be the soul source of feeding for people on Sunday morning and that we do need to be gracious hosts to seekers. But, we need to ask what they're seeking at the same time. Are they really there because they want to hear a great cover of Eric Clapton? Or Stravinsky (if you run classical!)?
Maybe worship is the place for feeding folks?? Certainly, we need to use contemporary language, style, music, and media... but I wonder if we need to balance that with the understanding that the Holy Spirit has brought them to seek Bread?
Great post to get my Monday thoughts going!!
www.EpiphanyAnglican.org
Greg Smith+
Brian,
Love what you have to say. My name is also Brian and I'm also a pastor. But for the sake of everyone knowing that this isn't just Brian Jones padding his own blog, let me state for the record that BJ has more hair and is better-looking. If you don't believe me, check out our website at www.aberdeenwesleyan.org.
Anyway, my point is to say that I agree with everything you say here. Please allow me to mention a couple things in particular.
Preaching time: I go about 20-25 minutes, occasionally creeping over the 30-minute line. We get out about 12:00 and people are looking to get out and take the roast out of the oven (or beat the Baptists to the buffet line...). In my context, people lose interest after a while, and so if I have to make more than one or two points, I simply make two messages out of it (also saves a bit of prep time! :))
Besides, I am bi-vocational. I don't have 30 hours a week to prepare a 45-60 minute message. God bless those of you who can and do. That's awesome. It just doesn't fly really well in our area where the predominant religious affiliations are Catholic and Lutheran and the sermons are about 10 minutes long.
Second: Eliminating Christian language. Amen! Er, I mean: yeah, man...
In our tradition (Wesleyan), "sanctification" is a very important concept.
I teach about it often - but haven't used the word in I don't know how long.
I stay away from "saved," "redeemed," even "born again" because of the political baggage of that term.
I talk about salvation all the time, but don't use the word very often. I talk about being forgiven and having a home in heaven. People get that.
One other thing. A few years back I had a pair come in and the very first words out of their mouth were, "You don't have one of those jazzy praise bands, do you? Because if you do, we'll just head right back out the door." My first impulse was to say, "See ya! Don't let the door hit your butt on the way out!" But I said, "Not yet!" They stayed a few months then continued their pattern of moving around to area churches. Don't miss them one bit.
Sorry for the long-winded post. But I'm a preacher, so that's what you get!
Brian La Croix
Have you ever noticed that those who oppose seeker services write 20 page diatribes? Do they not have lives?
You make a couple good points - but don't you think it's a pretty big stretch to say that only church hoppers wouldn't want to hear secular music? Particularly one with questionable lyrics?
If you really don't think it matters to Jesus how we conduct business in His house, in His name - and if your whole goal is to please sinners first and foremost - why stop with playing nasty songs? Why not dress up your female greeters like Hooter's girls, seriously?
Hooters girls! Your attendance would be through the roof!
That was a great list Brian, thanks for writing this. Good for you challenging the consumer mentality that plagues the modern church.
By the way, I'm a worship pastor and out church normally does around 8 songs per service. If you're ever hiring a worship guy give me a call. I could cut my work load in half! ;-)
I am still amazed on the rhetoric the few individuals possess on this blog. Oh, how I wish the “walk and works” would out do the tickling of the keyboard.
Spend more time walking with the lost and building a relationship than spew the constant nonsense of whether God would approve the worship service, etc.. or not.
Church hoppers are merely irresponsible adolescents in 30 plus year old shells. They are not only church hoppers, but they are usually relationship hoppers, job hoppers, commitment hoppers, hope hoppers, belief hoppers and finally adversity hoppers.
Frankly, there are too many people to connect with than for I to chase someone to stay in a dynamic environment like CCV.
The 8th way is to let them go.
Don...you are a very naughty boy, but also very funny!!
Brian..keep up the good work, and dont spend to much time on critics...they dont achieve anything for the kingdom at the end of the day!!
So many of us "Christians" have completely forgotten what it was like to be lost. We become inward focused and judgemental and really don't have much of a concern for the lost. We are more concerned with the methods used to reach people than we are that the person was reached. Seriously, God help us.
We become inward focused and judgemental and really don't have much of a concern for the lost.
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Certainly that is the case for some... but some would argue that Sunday morning is a poor time to make converts... In fact... simple church advocates would advocate that Sunday is indeed for feeding... and then nada else... kick people in the butt and send them out to make friends with the lost!!
(Having said that... if a secular song is helpful in that feeding, then use it.)
Blessings,
Fr. Greg Smith +
www.EpiphanyAnglican.org
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