Tuesday, May 06, 2008
While I was serving as an associate pastor at a large church in Florida years ago two people approached me after Wednesday night Bible study.
“We’d like to become Christians,” they said with smiles on their faces.
“That’s great! Congratulations!”
“But we’re not going to stop being gay,” they quickly added. “Besides, we’ve been raising our 10 year old son together since he was born. We’re the only family he knows.”
I paused, and then gently said, “Are you familiar with what the Bible says about homosexual activity?”
“Yes. But we have a question for you. Which sin is greater: continuing with the way we choose to live our lives or having one of us move out and ripping apart the only home our son has ever known?”
How would you have answered that question?
Read all the posts in this series:
Questions About Homosexuality
What If We’re Misinterpreting The Bible?
My Greatest Struggle Right Now
Should An Openly Homosexual Person Be Baptized?
Gay First Impressions Ministry?
Are Homosexuals Born That Way?
My Greatest Struggle Right Now – Questions About Homosexuality (Part 2)
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29 comments:
That's a great question! As an Anglican we are in the middle of a global "Civil War" over issues of homosexuality.
At the heart of their question is an assumption that their homosexuality has zero influence on their 10 year old son. The fact is, that it is forming in him a picture of God the Father that is deformed from the Biblical account. Thus, it would be appropriate for the "couple" to not only separate but perhaps even to find a different home for the child within the church.
Messy to say the least...
How did you answer?
Greg
www.EpiphanyAnglican.org
It sounds like this couple agreed that they were sinning. Do they keep on sinning that grace may abound? Maybe trying to live a celibate life would be best - however difficult. What a lesson in perseverance, patience, grace and love their lives could be for their son to never lessen their love and care for him and teach him how God can provide strength through the most difficult times of stress and temptation that this world has to offer.
In the short-term, splitting up would be worse. But in the long-term, it would be better for the child to grow up in a healthy environment. (Not that all heterosexual environments are healthy!)
When someone says they want to be a Christian, but they say something like "but we're not going to stop being gay" (or any sin) I am reminded of Jesus and the rich-young-ruler. He wanted to follow Jesus, but Jesus would not let him because he was not willing to give up what he valued most...himself. And Jesus let him walk away.
God does not want wishy-washy followers, lukewarm Christians. When we choose to follow him it is a whole-hearted commitment. I know we can't be perfect and without sin, but that doesn't mean we don't try! When you have the attitude that you don't want to change, then where is your devotion...to God, or yourself?
I'm dying to know how you answered them and how the little boy is doing!
Kurt ~ excellent comment regarding the rich young ruler.
People always ask which sin is greater. I don't remember God giving a ranking system for sin.
Well, that answers why my comment didn't make the cut on the last post. I didn't realize it was a coming topic.
I think it is a lot easier to resolve when all parties agree as to whether it is sin or not, still messy but easier. It's when the church and the parties disagree, whether out of ignorance or obstinacy, that it gets difficult.
I am just being honest here, as a pastor, I am not sure how I would respond to that situation. To me it is not an issue of which sin is worse but what outcome honors God.
I just pray for God's grace when the time comes that I am in that situation. I have strong beliefs on the topic but I have some strong feeling for those dealing with this as well.
Life is so messy.
I'm not certain my answer is the right answer and I'm not certain that any of us have the right answer. I think I would have encouraged the couple to seek out compassionate folks who would gently guide them in the ways of God and ask them to continue to seek out how the Holy Spirit is guiding them. If they are aware that their action is missing the mark of the ideal God has in mind then they need to look at all the options that could set them back to the path God has illuminated for us to follow. That may or may not have them moving apart. It may or may not have them moving into separate bedrooms. It may or may not be a totally different option that I'm missing. However, doesn't God acknowledge our hearts effort? It seems to me that saying "I know X is a sin and I'm not going to change." is very different than saying "I know X is a sin and I desire to find a way to please God and follow him while not feeling or doing anything to harm the fragile budding faith of my child."
Brian, how did you answer?
Its not a sin to do the right thing and separate. It is not easy, but cleaning up your mess means that you have to get dirty.
Their sin caused the situation. It is not a sin to repent.
Who ever said repenting is easy and painless?
Honor God and he will glorify the situation.
But how would I answer if I was in your shoes???
"I'm just the associate pastor, let me introduce you to the senior pastor."
:-D
Is it fair to say the deeper question is "what is the 'sin' behind homosexuality?"
is it a sin for two men to live in the same house?
is it a sin for two men to exert a godly, fatherly influence on a child?
at what point is this a sinful relationship, and at what point can the relationship exist in a way that honors God and provides a nurturing environment for their son?
If you people really don't know what's best, then you're goofy. Yes...goofy is the right word. These two people are not a "couple" and the three of them don't make up a "family." And regarding the previous post, God would have them separate and in different beds. Come on...are you ill? Please have the guts to say what's so obviously true...homosexuality is a perversion. And I suppose I need to add a final statement for those of you who are so dreadfully sensitive to people like me who like to hear and speak the truth directly, I'm sorry if this has offended you.
I say it is OK to continue how they are going. Everyone deserves to be happy. And it seems their boy is happy. Ripping apart the family will result in a big mess. Like we read in Brian's Blog yesterday the Bible said slavery was OK at one time and now it is not acceptable in society. So the Bible said homosexuality was not OK how about now it being acceptable? Goes both ways...
"As for me and my house we will serve the Lord. Joshua 24:15"
yikes...not an easy solution in site on that one.
I know what I "think" I would say, but I am interested to see how it came out. I am sure words do not do justice to the situation.
Ok...this blog topic has been on my mind for two days now. I need to read the correct passages in context. Can you give us the references that would be most beneficial?
va
Hi VA,
I get those in the next few posts. Thanks for asking.
Brian
I think that this will become an increasingly common pastoral question. I have faced this question twice in the past three years of ministry. In the most challenging case, a man came to me convinced that his lifestyle was wrong, but he had committed to his partner in good faith 13 years ago. They were raising three kids together. His partner was not interested in his faith. This man was reconnecting with Christ and knew that he was living a sinful lifestyle, but he did not see a way forward.
He came to me and asked, "What do I do?" I asked if he had prayed about it yet. He said that he was afraid to take it to God. He knew that whatever Christ had for him, it would be a road of great sacrifice and pain. Through tears he admitted that he just wasn't sure he trusted Christ to protect his sons through all that turmoil that would come. I invited him to meet me again so that we could pray and I assured him that the church would be with him as he took the risk to follow Christ. I haven't heard from him since. In that situation I chose not to give him advice directly but instead to walk with him in the study of scripture and in prayer, trusting the spirit to convict. I think that he actually saw pretty clearly what repentance would demand, and it was because he saw, that he walked sadly away.
In the other case there were no children involved, but the two women did end a 20 year partnership to separate and live celebate lives. Neither feels free from the temptation, but both experience joy in their obedience. I am in awe of their faithfulness. I have not yet lived a life of such radical discipline over my pervasive sins.
There is more to say but this comment has gotten long. Suffice to say, doctrinal purity is not that hard. Faithful living in light of the real complexity of life is a challenge that can only be faced with the grace of God and the power of the Spirit.
Ethan,
I couldn't have said it any better.
Thanks for that insight.
Brian
2 Cor. 10:3-5
Theology trumps biology and secular psychology, every time.
Though there are areas of gray, seems to me, this isn't one of them.
I would have asked them, who is the boy mother?
Doesn't he need a mother to live a normal life?
Are you going to teach him to have sexual relations and yet not be able to reproduce?
And I would read Romans the first chapter to them.
The truth of God's Word will convict them, and bring them to repentance, or they will not listen to it's pure and simple teaching and rebel.
Then i would pray for them, especially this boy who is in grave danger of understanding the truth of God's Word, which is where the life of Christ is.
God's hates all sin. the smallest stain on a rug is bad. But the same stain on a priceless oriental rug in the palace of the King is much worse. Not because of the stain, but because of what it stained.
Sin, all sin is like this to God.
He hates all sin, and will judge all sin, every sin, and sinner.
I am sorry that so many folks still see homosexuality as a perversion. You don't "catch" homosexuality from another person like it is a disease or something. I believe that nearly all (if not 100%) of homosexuals are born that way. Homosexuals are not child molesters any more than heterosexuals are. And I've never met or heard of a gay who wished homosexuality upon his/her children. Not because it's bad, but because of the persecution that might be directed at them. Some of the comments above are examples of that. I am not a theologian like some of the other readers, but good judgment and common sense governed by a Christian(WWJD) conscience tell me that this family of two parents and a child that they love is a good one.
do they have to be sexually active to provide a good home for the boy? the boy probably has no idea about the sexual side of the relationship anyway (i hope). Could they be room mates if there was some good accountability?
Here is Mark Driscoll's view.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=cSGIPqXhofE&feature=related
They are raising a child that a straight person did not want. How is that wrong? That child will most likely grow up to be more tolerant of other people than any "real Christian" who chooses to judge others.
Announcing judgment and pronouncing judgment are two different things. Homosexuality is an abomination. God has pronounced this already. It is the task of the church to announce it to the world.
hey are raising a child that a straight person did not want.
Who says? You were not given the background of this situation.
From a man that has three biological children, one adopted child, and soon to adopt another.
If the child was adopted, the mother did not want him or could not take care of him. If the boy belongs to one of the fathers biologically, again, the mother chose not to be involved. I don't know of many lesbians that got pregnant on accident which is why I said what I did. Perhaps I'm wrong.
If their commitment to "transformation is real; then one of two things will happen. They remain as committed loving family, but are celebate; which is tough but do-able.
Or they "Trust" Christ completely that whatever transpires in them making a "spirit-led" choice that may or may not lead them to separate. Do what God leads you to do, can "never" be the wrong thing in my humble opinion.
It's interesting how everyone assumes these are 2 gay men. Their gender is not stated in Brian's post.
I think it is hard for straight people to identify with and truly appreciate the dilemma. You may be a little more empathetic if you imagine that you live in a society that makes your own sexual preference unlawful. For example, you are a straight man but society dictates that you marry only another man. How would that feel? That is the reality faced by gay people.
We Christians have fixated on homosexuality because it's a sin most of us have no proclivity for. But what about divorce? My husband and I both had previous marriages. If we go strictly by what the Bible teaches about divorce, shouldn't we separate to avoid living in adultery?
My church has a gay couple (females) who attend regularly, love the Lord, and try to serve Him as best they can. Although the teaching of the church is that homosexuality is a sin, they continue to a) live together in what I assume is a sexual relationship, and b) attend church and serve in the church. Should we tell them they can't serve, or serve in sensitive areas such as Children's ministry? There are many divorced people performing such service -- is their sin worse than ours?
I don't know the answers to such questions. But I think that, if we err, we should err on the side of grace!
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