Wednesday, May 07, 2008
In my previous post I mentioned that I was posed the following question by two homosexuals jointly raising a child,
“Which sin is greater: continuing with the way we choose to live our lives or having one of us move out and ripping apart the only home our son has ever known?”
Here’s what I said…
“Honestly, I don’t know. I’m not God. But even if I did have a strong opinion on the matter, I wouldn’t give it to you. Do you want to know why? Because my hunch is you’re not really looking for an answer as much as you are looking for a reason to leave this church and turn your back on God. Others pastors may have given you reason to do so, but I’m not going to follow suit. You’re here for a reason, and that’s to find your way back to God. Once you do that, He’ll be the one that will help you answer that question.”
Then I hugged them both.
In my mind two more important questions lurked behind the question they asked:
1. Will this pastor guy treat our sin any differently than the other searching non-believers in the Bible study that went home to continue to embezzle money for their employer, look at porn on their computers or abuse prescription drugs?
2. Can I really trust God?
The second question is probably the most important. It’s hard to fathom how hard it is for a struggling homosexual to darken the doors of a church building, let alone contemplate turning their lives over to a deity who is going to ask for radical, painful change. That takes a great leap of faith; probably more than most heterosexual people were required to exercise before they became Christians.
The real issue for me comes down to this: How can we expect any non-believer to truly have a heart for the ways of God BEFORE conversion?
Most pastors I know won’t baptize an openly homosexual person.
This is utter non-sense.
I understand there are varying theologies on conversion and baptism, but the one thing we can all agree on is that by the time someone has been baptized they’ve turned their life over to Jesus and have received the gift of the Holy Spirit (FYI -- at CCV we baptize immediately after someone's profession of faith...not once a year, etc.).
God in us.
Power.
Illumination.
An internal craving for the things of God.
A new mind.
A new heart.
This only happens post conversion.
How can we expect an openly homosexual person to even want to change their life without their minds and hearts being born again?
That’s like a doctor telling someone with radically spreading lymphoma to show signs of remission before he’ll give them chemo.
What we do here at CCV is allow anyone to make a declaration of faith and get baptized.
There’s no “sin litmus test.”
We don’t check to see if anyone is shacking up, or look for heroin tracks on their arms, or condoms in their back pockets. We assume that everyone is as screwed up as I was before I came to Christ.
Now, we make it clear before baptism that Jesus asks us to forsake everything that is out of line with his will expressed in the Bible, but we don’t stand at the baptismal with an exhaustive checklist in hand.
Afterwards, however, that’s when the work of discipleship begins – teaching people how to obey everything that Jesus commanded (Matthew 28:18-20). People must be taught how to obey following baptism, not before it.
That’s when the subject of someone’s specific sin comes up.
And not before.
Read all the posts in this series:
Questions About Homosexuality
What If We’re Misinterpreting The Bible?
My Greatest Struggle Right Now
Should An Openly Homosexual Person Be Baptized?
Gay First Impressions Ministry?
Are Homosexuals Born That Way?
Should An Openly Homosexual Person Be Baptized? – Questions About Homosexuality (Part 3)
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13 comments:
Brian,
Excellent story on how to present baptism as a beginning not an end. I have never known a perfect person who was ever baptized. I have known people who have tried to reach perfection before being baptized. They either walk away from God or live a miserable life trying to obtain perfection.
I wrestled with a similar issue with a couple living together who got baptized the same day. The reality is they never new it was not a God honoring lifestyle, they were just trying to unite themselves to Christ. Now discipleship must take place.
Thanks for wrestling with this question.
Bake
While I agree with the way you handled their question... Baptism is a different issue. Baptism, historically in the Church, has happened after some degree of discipleship. (Even though it seems immediate in the NT... you have to take the context into account... most baptisms in the NT were of Jews who were accepting the messiah or pagans who had been observing Judaism and were attracted... not pagans who were just beginning a relationship with Christ).
Secondly, to be an open homosexual who wants to be baptized is the same as any sinner (embezzler, etc) who say, "I want to be baptized but I don't want to repent".
Baptism is not the first step in "Belong, Believe, Behave" it's the final step.
To be baptized in 3/4 of Christianity worldwide, you have to be able to make these types of promises... without your fingers crossed:
Question
Do you renounce Satan and all the spiritual forces of wickedness that rebel against God?
Answer - I renounce them.
Question
Do you renounce the evil powers of this world which corrupt and destroy the creatures of God?
Answer - I renounce them.
Question - Do you renounce all sinful desires that draw you
from the love of God?
Question - Do you turn to Jesus Christ and accept him as your Savior?
(continued)
Question - Will you continue in the apostles’ teaching and
fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in the prayers?
People - I will, with God’s help.
Hi Greg,
I don't want to get into a full-length discussion...but maybe at some point later on in some posts?
Here's where we land on the issue of baptism:
-In the NT documents baptism was always practiced as close as possible to a person's confession of faith, never after some discipleship has occured.
-According to Jesus in Matthew 28:18-20 discipleship (teaching people to obey) occurs after baptism, not before.
Again, there are widely diverging opinions on this. I just wanted to clarify where we land on the issue.
Well I'd say it depends on the person.
If a person says, I am gay and I won't change. Then I'd not baptize.
If a person says, I am gay... lets talk... then I'd baptize.
I appreciate where you're trying to come from... but context is key. While NT Baptism seems to be very close to a person's confession of faith... those people being baptized were (mostly) already covenant people. They were completing their Faith with acceptance of the Messiah.
I think that is why 2000 years of church history has had a catechesis approach.
As to Mt. 28, remember the context. Baptism wasn't just a "christian thing" it was a fairly common religious practice throughout the Ancient Near East. To be baptized meant a declaration of "followership".
To allow someone to make the declaration assumes some degree of decision to follow...
Brian,
Great post. I think Greg is off the mark, what about the "Ethopian" in Acts. What of the Gentiles in Acts that were immediately baptised?
Dude, this post rocks and I am glad you posted it and I agree 100% to the approach.
Part of the other can of worms, you mentioned in an earlier post - Born Homosexual?
Here are my simple thoughts on this matter. Sin entered the world when in the beginning mankind was created perfectly in the image of God. However, much like all things the decay of sin has crept into all phases of life, including mankind and the earth. The destruction of both earth and man is increasingly evident. Why could it not be possible that part of this decay is a flawed gene or decaying DNA to cause such things to happen? Just a theory, but I think possible. However, I do think someone mentioned in an earlier post, that just because your "born" a certain way, there is still a choice in deciding to remain that way. That is where the "transforming" power of Christ comes in. Just my simple thoughts on this matter.
IHL,
Richie
Hadn't the Ethiopian been worshiping in Jerusalem? He's either a "God-fearing Gentile" or a very devout Jew. The other Gentiles were the same way... locked in the outer courts by the religious elite... and ready for baptism.
A person who is a sinner of any stripe (embezzler or homosexual) is consciously saying, "I want to renounce all of my former life, except XYZ".
I have a TON of grace for all sinners who are becoming followers of Christ... but there are lines where one can graciously say, "Do you understand what you're getting into... and are you sure you're ready for this commitment"?
"People must be taught how to obey following baptism, not before it."
Very well put.
In addition, 1 Peter 3:15 says, “But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect...”
1) Always share, through fear and trembling, with those who seek an answer.
2) Do it with gentleness and respect.
You can't share your answer without gentleness and respect and you can't just have gentleness and respect without sharing your answer. Doing one without the other will lead to confusion and frustration and will ultimately hurt the body of believers.
I appreciated your responce to those two people. The Spirit will have it's "perfect work."
"This is utter non-sense."
Is it?
What if a raciest comes and wants to be baptized? He hates black people, but wants to be a Christian.
Or a pedophile? Or a murderer?
It's very important for the Word of God to convict a sinner to godly sorrow, which leads to repentance. Paul turned a church member over to Satan for have sex with his father's wife. He excommunicated him.
And later on he repented, and the church and he were reconciled.
I worked with a homosexual one time, and we were reading Romans chapter one together.
He said to me, this looks like I can never be a Christian, according to God's word.
I said, "You are blessed Jay to say that, for you can now ask the Lord to grant you power to repent and ask Him to change your heart, believe in the Cross and resurrection of Jesus, and forgiveness shall be yours.
He said he couldn't do all that. I told him it was between him and the Lord, and he would perhaps have to go even lower before salvation came to him, i didn't know, only God knows.
But I fear God, and love Him too much to water down His Word.
"Many in that day will say, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we serve you in the church, and do deeds for you?'. and Jesus will say, "I never knew you, you lawless ones".
The law has to have a place in our hearts. We must love God's law, and hate sin.
Sure we shall struggle with sin all our days, but we will hate it because God hates it.
Amen and Amen. Aren't we taught to love everyone--I know that I was so far from the beaten path before I was saved there was no way that I could have been your "ideal" person at the time of baptism. Thank you for stepping out and making a statement. Don't we all need Jesus?
Count me in with Greg. I believe the two questions asked of the couple nailed the issues, and were correct.
Acts 19--the believers in Ephesus were corrected in their theology (discipled, to an extent) then baptized. Baptism is a confession, I am dead and risen with Christ ; is, as CK said, the person saying I'm gay and I'm not changing, no baptism should occur.
This couple does not hide their sin and it is out on the table. If they don't have a heart for the ways of God, have they repented? The secret embezzler is as guilty, but if you as the Christian leader do not have knowledge of the embezzler's defiance, it's a different matter. Repentance is a pre-requisite for baptism, is it not? "Repent and be baptized" Acts 2.
The couple is identifying the very issue that might be keeping them from Christ--are they similar to the rich young ruler who walked away when asked by Jesus to give up what he had to follow Christ?
I agree with Greg here.
When you study the context of baptism , pre-New Testament and its usgae you will find what Greg is saying is accurate. And his thoughts on baptism and who was baptized or not in the NT. You will find that very, very quickly in the early church they ended up having a separation of time for people getting baptized who came from non-Jewish backgrounds. They even took up to a year to ensure they were truly converted and took the seriousness of their new faith accuratlly as unlike the Jews who already were converted so to speak, they were coming from pagan backgrounds. So they church developed quickly a time period of waiting between conversion and baptism. So you do need to really study the whole scenario and church history.
Also, the key as Don Sands raises is "repentance". You stated would we treat the one struggling with porn the same, or one embezzling. The question is if they are repentant of their sin or not. If someone struggling with pron or other addictions is repentant and trying to change - I would baptize them of course. But if they are saying, well, I am going to continue in this but please baptize me anyway - then I would not baptize them.
I don't think anyone who is unrepentant should be baptized. You said "That’s like a doctor telling someone with radically spreading lymphoma to show signs of remission before he’ll give them chemo." I disagree. Someone who was willing to undergo chemo is showing a willingness to get rid of the cancer. A person who wants baptism should be showing a willingness to get rid of all sin. Your analogy is more like someone who has spreading lymphoma who wants to continue having doctors appointments but is refusing chemo and saying that cancer is okay.
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