Monday, May 05, 2008
It’s clear that the writers of the New Testament saw nothing contradictory whatsoever between following Jesus and upholding the culture’s position on slavery.
There is no command, no teaching, not even a hint among the New Testament writers that slavery was an evil institution to be abolished.
Quite the contrary…
Slaves were encouraged to accept their lot in life…
1 Corinthians 7:20-23:
20 Each of you should remain in the situation you were in when God called you. 21 Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. 22 For those who were slaves when called to faith in the Lord are the Lord's freed people; similarly, those who were free when called are Christ's slaves. 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings. 24 Brothers and sisters, all of you, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation in which God called you.
Slaves were taught to obey their masters in everything…
Titus 2:9-11
9 Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, 10 and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive. 11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age…
Slaves were taught to endure beatings joyfully…
1 Peter 2:18-21
18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19 For it is commendable if you bear up under the pain of unjust suffering because you are conscious of God. 20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
The entire witness of the New Testament leads us to one inescapable conclusion: God doesn’t have that big of a problem with slavery; otherwise the early church leaders would have gone ballistic over it.
150 years ago pastors used these very verses to justify slavery.
What if 150 years from now people look back on modern-day evangelicals and think the same thing about the way we view homosexuality?
Does the Bible give us unambiguous direction on the issue? Certainly. Homosexuality is a sin. No issue is any more clear in scripture.
But 150 years ago people used the unambiguous teaching of the Bible to justify their belief that slavery was okay.
150 years later we think, Who cares what the Bible teaches on slavery? It’s wrong. Not because of what the Bible teaches, but because of everything we know to be true about life as Christians.
Abolitionists fought against the evils of slavery in spite of what the Bible taught.
And they were right.
No Christian today denies that.
What if it’s the same situation with homosexuality?
I have unashamedly upheld the Bible’s teaching that homosexuality is a sin for 20 years of ministry. But what if 150 years from now Christians look back on me and think the same thing that we think about pastors who 150 years ago taught slavery was okay?
I haven’t changed my position in the least. I’m just asking the question.
Read all the posts in this series:
Questions About Homosexuality
What If We’re Misinterpreting The Bible?
My Greatest Struggle Right Now
Should An Openly Homosexual Person Be Baptized?
Gay First Impressions Ministry?
Are Homosexuals Born That Way?
What If We’re Misinterpreting The Bible? – Questions About Homosexuality (Part 1)
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30 comments:
Slavery and homosexuality are different.
In essence we are all slaves. I am a slave to my employer.
But slavery as practiced in the US was not the slavery talked about in the Bible from the masters perspective. If we have slaves we are supposed to treat them well, slaves were not treated well. If you were a slave (and a Christian) you were supposed to be content in all situations.
Homosexuality is a sin. Slavery is a place in life. The treatment of slaves was a sin. The having of slaves was a place in life.
But in essence many of us today are slaves. Not in anyway minimizing the abuse that slaves went through, but had the owners followed Christian principals and treated their slaves well, there would be little difference between me having to go to work every day for a wage and a slave.
However I have given your question thought over the years. It honestly worries me, because homosexuality and slavery are different. But folks will paint them to be the same and it worries me for the life my children will have to live.
Where is it in the Bible that we are supposed to judge others? Yes, we should tell our faith to others, let them know what the Bible teaches, but we are not to judge. We are called to love everyone, are we not?
that is a very well thought out answer! We know that homosexuality is not honoring to God, neither is gossip (of which I have been guilty) but if we confess our sin He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrightousness (1Jn1-9) The word speaks of being slaves to sin and being set free from the law of sin and death (PTL) With regards to slavery, anyone who dominates another person in an evil way is going to answer to God for their actions, I would want to be a gentle taskmaster to all who are subordinate to me (my children, the dog, the fish) knowing that we are accountable to Him for our actions.
"150 years ago slave owners used the unambiguous teaching of the Bible to justify their belief that slavery was okay"...because they had an agenda. They twisted these verses out of context and used them to say that God does not care about slavery. If God did not care about it, then why did he free Israel from bondage in Exodus? Why does Paul say in 1 Cor 7:21 (a verse you quoted) "if you can gain your freedom, do so"? Why does he later say in 23 "do not become slaves of human beings"?
Your comment that "God doesn't have that big of a problem with slavery" is quite troubling. Just because the church leaders did not go "ballistic" over it, does not mean that God does not care about it. Do you really believe human-sex-slaves is not that big of deal? Do you believe that suicide is not that big of deal? Do believe that oral sex is not that big of deal? The Bible does not go "ballistic" over these issues, but that does not mean it is not that big of deal to God. Slavery is a big deal, and it is wrong. Homosexuality is no different.
The Bible might be ambiguous about those issues, but it is not ambiguous that homosexuality is wrong and is a sin. I was glad to see you state this. If you are going to relate anything to the issue of slavery, then you should relate gay activists to the slave owners. Both misinterpret Scriptures to support their agenda.
I think in 150 years (and now!) people will look at the gay activists who use the Bible to support their views, and compare them to the slave owners.
I am glad you have not changed your position, and that's because you are correct. The Bible is clear, and our position should be too. I understand you are just asking the question, but I do not think people will compare you to the slave owners.
John 8:16 "But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me."
John 7:24 "Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment.”
1 Corinthians 5:12-13 "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”
1 Peter 4:17 "For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?"
1 Corinthians 5:3 "Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present."
I would rather be judged by others now, so I can see if I am in the wrong before I am judged by God!
Just because you point out the truth in Scripture does not mean that you are condemning someone to hell. You can call a spade a spade, and you can call a sin a sin. I would expect the same from someone else when I fail.
on slavery...
it's one thing when spiritual leaders are encouraging growing christians to be satisfied with current life circumstances. that kind of spiritual advice to disciples from leaders is very relevant. that is good advice. and it wasn't coming from slave owners, in fact, it came from a man that have suffered, not rich land owners trying to protect their economic butts.
the other thing that the slave issue of 150 years ago addresses is the oppressive practices of slave owners and slave traders.
Not to mention racism.
God always comes to the rescue of the oppressed and takes sides with the oppressed against the oppressors.
when it comes to the sin of homosexualty, there is nothing to interpret or misinterpret. the scripture is not ambiguous or symbolic when it comes to sexual immorality whether it be hetero or homo.
however, if we use the scripture to justify the oppression, discrimination, or hatred of those Jesus died for, now we're in the precarious position of standing against the oppressed - with whom God stands.
On the surface, this is an apples and oranges, homosexuality and slavery. comparison until we start using the scripture to justify hateful or oppressive behavior. that is the only way to turn th discussion into an apples to apples debate.
here's the thing about history: it's written by men. how we remember events depends on who writes about them. but the Word of God is written by God. measuring with history and measuring with the Bible can produce two very different results.
You've officially opened a can. Similiar to Ed Young in this video.
I don't think that people realize that you were using slavery as an example to emphasize the fact that the Bible isn't too "black-and-white" as we'd like it to be. Some might think it wasn't the best analogy but I think it's fine.
I, too, have "unashamedly upheld the Bible's teaching that homosexuality is a sin" for my 8 years of ministry. I don't think that is a sign of hatred or a form of judgement of any kind. I'd say the same about rage or obesity or rape or murder. However, I do have one question that I was suprised I would have to ask: After quoting three prominent passages on slavery, why didn't you use scripture to back up your point on the why and how's of the sin of homosexuality?
Maybe you can expound on that as it would be beneficial for us to understand your reasoning. Even if some of us already understand, others might benefit greatly.
I'm looking forward to where you will be taking this thread. Blessings.
Bo,
That's a good idea. I'm been trying to keep my posts to under 5 billion words each (I can get wordy), so I'll do that in a later post.
I think what people are missing is this: I'm not comparaing homosexuality and slavery.
I'm comparing the interpretive process that got us our position on homosexuality and how that same hermeneutic got people 150 years ago to their position on slavery.
Homosexuality and slavery...apples and oranges.
The hermeneutic used to discern God's thoughts on both issues...apples to apples.
Shame on you all, my neighbors. Being homophobic is a sign of weakness, not strength. Why do all of you outside of our lifestyle community continually seek to express your inner hatred in such a manner that so implies love toward sinners but, not so covertly, reckons those of us within the population who are gay to a place of lesser status? To draw a hermeneutic comparison between my lot in life and that of a slave is to unequivocally demonstrate a biased and flawed approach to the sensitivity of those professors to whom you have subscribed for your tutelage. May I suggest a broader, more inclusive approach to your efforts in seeking to convey a message that, although may be formal or informal, can contribute and/or assign a vestige of humanity to those of us who aren't "in the fold." In the words of Archbishop Tutu,"Never will I submit my soul to those without...nor to those within." And to that, I say yes...
Brian, good post! Just to clarify, in your opinion and/or the Bible's, is homosexuality a choice or something you are born with? thanks.
Brian,
I've been considering the very same line of thought these days. To open the worm can, i.e., to expose your inner thought process in spite of the many reasons to supress it, takes great courage. I salute you.
The rush of defense (or is it offense?) from your "fellows of the faith" will likely come from 2 sides: (1) those who are "correct" in their theology and insist that you be as well, and (2) those who consider you to be another victim of the "spirit of the age."
Buckle up!
On whether or not homsexuality is something people are born with. Good question. I want to tackle that in a post. What do you think?
Funny. Jesus never said it was wrong. Paul did, but he wasn't one of the 12 anyway and got into arguments with Peter, the Rock upon whom Christ built his church.
The Bible's teaching on slavery is more nuanced than many people realize. Oppression is not viewed favorably in the Bible (as the account of the exodus indicates, for example). Also, the slave trade is condemned in 1 Timothy 1:10. However, it appears that placing oneself in slavery in order to pay off a debt was considered an honorable act.
However, I do not see any circumstances in which homosexual activity was considered anything but sinful.
Herman Who? I don't remember hearing about Herman in church.
Why do people associate the sin of homosexuality with being homophobic? Just because you don't agree with the sin, doesn't mean you are homophoic.
That's like saying those of us who think that murder is a sin are all necrophobics; people who are afraid of death.
That honestly doesn't make any sense. Really.
Brian,
The key component to this subject is if people are born gay or if it is learned behavior. Homosexual behavior has been observed in people and in every mammal population ever studied since humans started recording what they saw. Over the ages this behavior has been treated as a disease or mental illness. Even in mice and rat populations, individuals displaying homosexual behavior are often killed or run off. Freud thought it was a condition brought on by an overprotective mother and a distant father. Until 1973 the American Psychiatric Association listed homosexuality as a mental disorder. There have been some very interesting studies on identical twins and how gay and straight people respond to pheromones or simply, the way we smell. There is a ton of published material supporting that homosexuality is learned. Most of this tends to be from groups calling themselves “Christian”. Just do a quick web search on “homosexuality and behavior” and you’ll see what I mean.
It still comes back to the core question of Nature or Nurture? There is a very politicaly active group of people that feel if homosexuality is scientifically proven to be innate that government will be forced to accept homosexuality the same way as race or gender rights. They also believe that this acceptance will damage society beyond repair. The funny thing is this is exactly how many people felt about letting women vote and people of color have equal rights.
I have two family members who are gay. When asked; at what age did you realize you were gay? They both answer the same way. They knew something was “different” from their earliest memories and the realization and understanding of being gay happened several years before puberty. They both came from stable families with younger and older siblings who are not gay. They both feel that they have always been gay. I know that this doesn’t prove anything but I still have to come to terms with the fact this is who they are. I don’t know for sure if it’s Nature or Nurture but I don’t believe that my family members “chose” to be gay.
For whatever reason, society has chosen being gay as a hot button topic. When I think of the sins that are destroying families, homosexuality seems to have much less of an impact than poverty, idol (money) worship and divorce. Sadly, surveys show that Christians get divorced just as often as everybody else. When I take a step back and look at my neighborhood and at Phoenixville and Philadelphia we seem to have much bigger problems than homosexuality. I believe that homosexual behavior is a sin. I also believe that my sins are just as wrong. I also believe when we try to point at a specific Bible verse to either support or condemn a position on sin we miss the bigger theme. Cover to cover the Bible is filled with examples of how God used people that were damaged and broken to do his work. God used killers, prostitutes, liars and self haters to do his most important work. He even uses a sinner like me. I think the debate is healthy as long as we realize we’re all on the same side.
Sean Healy
For what it is worth, I don't believe that I am choosing this lifestyle--but that I was born this way. I would love to be just like everyone else, but I am not, and I don't think that God is asking/leading me to be.
I can't imagine God would have me be this way and not have it be for a reason. I have prayed and prayed for a different set of feelings and outcomes, and everything thus far has lead me to this.
Who knows. I just want to be loved and accepted like everyone else is-no matter what. I am human first, and my sexuality doesn't define me. And if it turns out in the end that I am rejected by God, then so be it. I will still be grateful for the grace and peace I feel now --knowing and believing that He loves me. Until then, I will keep praying and thanking Him for what I have and continue to serve Him as I can.
"The entire witness of the New Testament leads us to one inescapable conclusion"
I'm looking forward to your future parts to this topic because I don't see the conclusion as "inescapable." The scriptures that you are quoting are all directed to the slaves not the slave masters. The message to the slaves is about attitude, patience,contentment and the idea that your freedom is in Jesus and the state of their heart. There are plenty of instructions/scriptures to the slave masters regarding their attitude - love, joy, peace, patience, faithfulness, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self-control. Hard to oppress slaves when these are the fruit of your life.
Perhaps that the lesson to us in regard to homosexuality is: For the homosexual - to be content with the situation you are in - that God will give you peace. This does not take away from the fact that acting out homosexual desires is wrong. For the rest of us... if we are exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit, it's pretty hard to judge or oppress those who struggle with sin - whatever the sin maybe. Perhaps those who struggle with sin would struggle with less if they are surrounded by people who were truly exhibiting the fruit.
Brian, good post! Just to clarify, in your opinion and/or the Bible's, is homosexuality a choice or something you are born with? thanks.
Does it matter if you are born homosexual or not? If you are born homosexual, it is not an excuse for being homosexual. Some would say some folks are born angry (and there is more proof for this then the other), but it is not an excuse to be angry.
But then you get the argument, if someone was born that way then it must be OK with God. Wrong. We live in a fallen world and face the consequences of it every day. From children born addicted to crack to children born to broken families.
Homosexuality is not because of God, but because of the exclusion of God.
I can relate to the gentleman you mentioned in the prior post.
Is there something that you have read of Jesus that would indicate that this is His spirit? I have not. I'm an optimist; in 150 years, we will have learned to be more loving and less judging.
va
Anonymous wrote: "Funny. Jesus never said it was wrong. Paul did, but he wasn't one of the 12 anyway and got into arguments with Peter, the Rock upon whom Christ built his church."
It really bothers me when people ONLY look at what Jesus said. Do you believe the whole Bible, or only the words in red? If ALL Scripture is inspired and useful (2 Tim 3:16), then shouldn't we listen to ALL of it?
It's funny, I don't remember Jesus saying anything about child-pornography. But wouldn't you agree it is wrong? The whole "Jesus didn't say it" argument is VERY weak. If you think about it, even the words of Jesus were written down by the NT writers and not himself.
Brian, I think a post regarding whether or not people are born being homosexual or if it is a choice would make a great post. Looking forward to your thoughts.
I think what confuses me with the topic of homosexuality is how it is approached so differently than any of the other guiding words about how to life your life. It seems that at the core it is simply an extention of all the other teachings in the Bible about sexual conduct. Not married. No sex. Not attracted to the opposite gender. No sex. Isn't it better to come to a place where we accept our lot and use that to engage in rich God honoring life changing relationships? Than to sit and fume that we cannot marry or engage in physical gratification? This is not meant in anyway to come off as insensitive but fits into a picture much larger than just that of homosexuality.
Another thought is that a person is not born strait or gay, but male or female.
You are either born to mate with women (ie your a guy) or your born to mate with a guy (ie your a gal).
I don't think it is up to us, the heterosexual, to determine if people are born gay or turn gay. This question should only be asked to them. They are the ones living this lifestyle and we should not put words in their mouths. If they are happy, that is all that matters. If you say they are sinning so what? Don't we all sin? I don't know many perfect people living 100% Gods way. There are worse problems in this world to worry about.
Brian, The fact that you are addressing this topic reminds me of why I am a member of this church. Your handling of these issues is mature and informed in my view. Okay, enough kissing up.
I am not gay, but I know folks who are. They were born that way, and I am sure of this because in most cases I also know the families and the siblings. Who are we to tell the homosexuals that by following their natural sexual instincts (as we ALL do) that they are less in the eyes of God than we are? It is not a decision to be gay. Some people must think that this is a willpower thing, like we all WANT to be gay, but we don't because we know it's wrong. That's just backward thinking, or maybe homophobia.
My belief is that this issue is right in line with the controversial biblical handling of topics like women in the church and slavery. Virtually everyone agrees that the bible is not to be taken literally about those two topics in our modern times; I am certain we will learn one day to treat homosexuality the same way.
I think that we forget that when the Bible says "Don't" God is really saying "Don't hurt yourself". The rules are for US--not for God. While there are stories of gay people who are happy and fulfilled --let's be honest-- the lifestyle as a whole is self-indulgent and self-centered. Just like my self-indulgent, self -centered sins need to be "called out" by my Christian family--I, too, need to help my gay brothers and sisters in Christ realize that their unwillingness to submit to God's word is rebellion.
BTW, someone said that God forgives us--he does if we repent (not the english definition). In the original language repentence means sorrow for the sin and a COMPLETE turning away from it.
I have yet to conquer any sin in my life on my own, but with the help of the Holy Spirit I have overcome (after long arguements with God about how my behavior isn't THAT bad)some of my sins.
FINALLY, It doen't matter if Jesus or Paul (or the OT) talked about sexuality--the whole Bible is God's word to us.
Brian,
According to the creation story that I am familiar with God created the earth and the skies and then He created all of the animals and He then Adam.
After God crested Adam He thought that Adam would be less lonely or more happy if he had a companion. So God decided to create Eve using part of Adams body.
After God finished creating Adam and then Eve along with the rest of creation didn't God say, "Be fruitful and multiply?" How does that occur with same sex partners? I don't think God designed man to multiply in this way. It just doesn't work.
If you want to try to justify homosexuality as an acceptable alternative lifestyle then you must conclude that God didn't know what He was doing or He made some mistakes.
I don't think God, who is perfect, intended for this type of "family" to exist.
Remember Sodom and Gomorraa? I believe the more man accepts sin as acceptable the sooner there could be another occurance.
Ed Fisher
Brian,
first of all, thanks for taking time to blog. I'm a young pastor in Colorado and your blog has been a great encouragement to me. Your topic reminds me of a great book: William Webb's "Slaves, Women, Homosexuals." It is a book on hermeneutics and talks about the "redemptive movement hermeneutic." Essentially it wrestles with "what do we do when our modern culture is more moral than the Bible teachings. IE slavery. It then looks at a potential "trajectory" that the Bible puts in place regarding these three topics. Anyway, its a great read and not too scholarly.
No, I'm not nearly the geek that this comment shows me as and yes, you do have to be careful taking this book in public settings as the title requires some explanation!
best wishes
Steve Cuss
cusswords.net
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